In an extensive two-day interview last October, President Joe Biden engaged with Special Counsel Robert Hur and his team, sharing anecdotes from his long political career and answering questions about his handling of sensitive documents. A transcript of this interview, recently reviewed by CNN, has been delivered to Congress following a subpoena.
The transcript is filled with classic Biden stories, from an embarrassing archery incident in Mongolia to intense discussions about his stance on the Afghanistan war. However, it also revealed instances of Biden’s memory lapses, including a moment where he seemed to forget the year his son Beau passed away.
Biden was unable to recall how his aides managed sensitive documents or how these documents ended up in boxes that were moved to a private office and residences he occupied after his vice presidency. When asked about his personal notes on foreign policy, Biden admitted to the investigators, “I have no idea, I wish I could say I was more organized.”
These instances led the special counsel to describe Biden in his final report as a “sympathetic, well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory,” who would likely win over a jury. In the 388-page report released last month, Hur concluded that Biden mishandled and improperly disclosed classified information after leaving the vice presidency. However, Hur stated that there was insufficient evidence to charge Biden with a crime.
Despite the lack of charges, Hur’s report has caused a stir in the political landscape due to its portrayal of the president as forgetful and confused. This characterization has been met with outrage from both the White House and Biden himself, while Republicans have seized on it and expressed disappointment that charges were not brought.
Biden’s lengthy and often off-topic monologues during the interview are notable given the high stakes of Hur’s investigation. Lawyers typically advise clients to provide short answers in depositions, but Biden seemed to employ a strategy from his Senate days – filibustering with long answers during the five-hour interview, which was negotiated in advance between Hur and Biden’s personal and White House lawyers.
The interview’s tone was not adversarial, as per the transcript. Biden’s jokes punctuated the discussion, leading to laughter in the room. He joked about the FBI’s familiarity with his house, his relationship with Senator Lindsey Graham, and even teased about the possibility of the FBI finding risqué pictures of his wife during their searches.
Biden insisted that he never intentionally kept classified documents after leaving office. He described relying on aides to handle sensitive papers, including deciding what to pack up when he was leaving office.
The most explosive allegation about Biden’s memory in the report was that the president “did not remember, even within several years, when his son Beau died.” The transcript shows that the president brought up his son amid a broader discussion about his handling of sensitive documents as he considered his future after leaving public office after five decades.
As evidence that Biden knew he had classified information in his garage, Hur cited transcripts of a recorded conversation between Biden and his ghostwriter where Biden said that he “just found all the classified stuff downstairs.” Hur said that Biden appeared to be referencing documents about the Afghanistan troop surge that FBI agents later found in his garage.
Biden, however, interpreted the comment differently during his interview. When an investigator asked the president if he remembered “finding any classified stuff downstairs,” the president said no. “The only thing I can remember is I wanted to be clear to him that I didn’t want what he just heard me say … I didn’t want any of that mentioned, it was confidential,” Biden said of discussing the contents of his book.
In the interview, according to the transcript, Biden shed little light about how classified documents came to be found at his post-vice-presidential office and homes in Delaware and Virginia, repeatedly saying he didn’t recall who packed and moved boxes from his official vice-presidential offices and residence at the end of the Obama administration.
The transcript shows investigators at times seeming to struggle to keep control, as Biden used up time with long answers. Asked about his use of work spaces at the Naval Observatory residence, Biden proceeded to take about 10 minutes to tell stories that ranged from his work to passing the Violence Against Women Act to an account of his first job out of law school at a Delaware law firm.
In one instance, Hur, running out of the allotted time for the interview, tried to steer the president to recall whether he knew certain sensitive documents were being stored in his main Delaware home. Instead of answering the question, Biden launched into a story about his Corvette, which was stored in the garage where some documents were found. The president then segued into the joys of electric car technology, and how fast they can go from zero to 60 mph. Hur interrupted politely, “Sir, I’d love – I would love, love to hear much more about this, but I do have a few more questions to get through.”